Sunday School Extra Credit 12/15/19

I want to spend some time with Chris Wallace and former FBI Director James Comey, who chatted in yesterday's Fox News Sunday classroom.

Not surprisingly, much of the conversation related to Intelligence Community Inspector General Michael Horowitz's report, which didn't find any political bias in the investigation, but did find that there were a whole mess of errors and mistakes by folks involved in it. What was surprising to me was how Comey reacted to the IG's report. For example, here's what Comey said about the report and 'vindication.'

It is. I mean, the FBI's had to wait two years while the president and his followers lied about the institution. Finally the truth gets told.

And here's Horowitz on whether his report vindicated Comey.

It doesn't vindicate anyone at the FBI who touched this, including the leadership.

Comey suggested the difference between the two takes on vindication drive from how the word is being understood; he's interpreting it as clearing his FBI from the 'nonsense' that was the many accusations from the president and his minions.

What I mean is that the FBI was accused of treason, of illegal spying, of tapping Mr. Trump's wires illegally, of opening an investigation without justification, of being a criminal conspiracy to unseat -- defeat and then unseat a president. All of that was nonsense. I think it's really important that the inspector general looked at that and that the American people, your viewers and all viewers, understand that's true. But he also found things that we were never accused of, which is real sloppiness, and that's concerning. As I've said all along, has to be focused on. If I were director I'd be very concerned about it and diving into it.

Regarding the FISA applications and the resulting warrants - about which Comey had previously expressed "total confidence" both in the process being followed and the case being handled in a "thoughtful, responsible way" by the FBI and DOJ, Horowitz had a different opinion.

We identified significant inaccuracies and omissions in each of the four applications, seven in the first application and a total of 17 by the final renewal application.

Comey expressed some contrition, saying

I was overconfident in the procedures that the FBI and Justice had built over 20 years. I thought they were robust enough. It's incredibly hard to get a FISA. I was overconfident in those. Because he's right. There was real sloppiness, 17 things that either should've been in the applications or at least discussed and characterized differently. It was not acceptable and so he's right. I was wrong. 

Wallace suggested that Comey sounded like a "bystander, an eyewitness" but in fact Comey was in charge of the FBI. I felt the same way as Wallace did about Comey here.

Sure. I'm responsible for it. That's why I'm telling you I was wrong. I was overconfident as director in our procedures and it's important that a leader be accountable and transparent. If I were still director, I'd be saying exactly the same thing that Chris Wray is saying, which is we are going to get to the bottom of this. Because the most important question is, is it systemic? Are there problems in other cases?

Comey and Horowitz also disagreed on the importance of the notorious Steele dossier; while Comey maintained it was "part of a broader mosaic," while Horowitz declared it "played an essential role in establishing probable cause." Wallace talks about the report saying that, if the Steele dossier had not been received, the FBI might never have even submitted a FISA application, but that when they did review the dossier, they did in fact submit the application.  

Comey suggested that he and Horowitz were not far apart on that issue,

What his report says is that the FBI thought it was a close call until they got the Steele report, put that additional information in, and that tipped it over to be probable cause. It's a long FISA application. It includes Steele material and lots of other material. I don't think we're saying different things.

Wallace disagreed. 

Well, I think you are, sir, because he's saying -- you're saying it's part of a broader mosaic; it's just one element. He's saying it was the tipping point. It's what brought it over. That doesn't make it part of a broader mosaic; it makes it the centerpiece of the whole FISA application and the ability to surveil Carter Page.

They had some further back and forth on that, with Comey holding his ground that

It was one of a bunch of different facts that were assembled to apply to the court. It was the one that convinced the lawyers that they had enough now, with that added to the pile, to go forward.

Wallace was disbelieving of that, saying that he appeared to be "minimizing the role of the Steele dossier" while Horowitz was "saying it's a lot more important than you let on."

Okay. If I was, then I'm sorry that I did that. But I meant it was one part of the presentation to the court. It was not a huge part of the presentation to the court, but it was the fact, according to his report, that convinced the lawyers to go forward.

After achieving no real agreement there, Wallace moved on to the IG's issues with whether a source (sub-source?) referenced in the dossier had his statements misinterpreted or exaggerated, but still used to get renewals on the FISA applicant and continued surveillance. Here again, there was little agreement between the two men, with Wallace accusing Comey of mischaracterizing the information in the dossier, and Comey accusing Wallace of mischaracterizing the Horowitz report. 

And they disagreed about how much knowledge Comey should have had about the investigation. Here's Wallace.

You're the FBI Director... This isn't "some investigation," sir. This is an investigation of the campaign of the man who is the president of the United States. You had just been through a firestorm investigating Hillary Clinton. I would think, if I were in your position, I would have been on that, you know, like a junkyard dog. I would have wanted to know everything they were doing investigating the Trump campaign. 

Comey tried to set him straight on how things work, but again, I share Wallace's disbelief on this.

Yeah, that's not the way it works, though. As a director sitting on top of an organization of 38,000 people, you can't run an investigation that's seven layers below you. You have to leave it to the career professionals to do, to the special agents who do this for their lives. And if a director tries to run an investigation, it'll get mucked up in all different kinds of ways, given his or her responsibilities and the impossibility of reaching the work that's being done at the lower level.

On it went, with Comey minimizing or disagreeing with what Horowitz found, including that there was a criminal referral made regarding an attorney who apparently altered emails. Comey seemed to minimize it, saying that there's been no resolution on the referral. Wallace was incredulous.

I mean, you make it sound like it's not much... It's quite a lot. I mean, not a source - 'a source' to 'not a source' is a big deal.

Comey agreed, but added

But remember how we got here. The FBI was accused of criminal misconduct. Remember, I was going to jail, and lots of other people were going to jail. People on this network said it over, and over, and over again. The Inspector General did not find misconduct by FBI personnel, did not find political bias, did not find illegal conduct. The Inspector General found significant mistakes, and that is not something to sneeze at; that's really important. But the American people -- especially your viewers -- need to realize, they were given false information about the FBI. It's honest. It is not political. It is flawed.

In return,  Wallace asked if Comey would "agree that the FISA court was also given false information by the FBI?" Comey agreed. 

I think that's fair. The FBI should have included -- or at least pushed to the lawyers, so they could make a decision -- information that you just said, things like that, that another agency -- not a source relationship, but some kind of contact relationship --.

Blissfully, we are nearing the end of this train wreck of an interview. Wallace played another clip of Horowitz answering a question about how he explains what happened, the significant errors on "one of the FBI's most significant cases..." Wallace said  Horowitz said "it's one of two things, and he can't decide: gross negligence or it was intentional misconduct." Comey claims that in the report Horowitz says

He says, "I -- we are not concluding that there was intentional misconduct by FBI officials."

Seriously?  Wallace tried again, pointing out that Horowitz was asked "How do you explain it?" And he said, "Gross negligence or intentionality." And again, here's Comey tap-dancing.

Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. He doesn't find intentionality, but that doesn't make it any less important. As director, you are responsible for this. I was responsible for this. And if I were still there, I'd be doing what Chris Wray is doing -- is figuring out, "So, how did this happen? And is it systemic?" Because that's the scariest thought, is that --

Wallace interrupted to ask Comey whether he would resign, if he "were still there, and all of this came out, and it turned out it happened on your watch..."

I don't think so. There are mistakes I consider more consequential than this during my tenure, and the important thing is to be transparent about it and then look to fix it, and explain to the American people how you fixed it.

Wallace asked about Snitty Snitty Bill Barr, how he's been "harshly critical" of the FBI, and shared his reaction to the Horowitz report, in which he said the issues "leaves open the possibility to infer bad faith" and Wallace wondered if Barr had a point.

No. He does not have a factual basis as the attorney general of the United States to be speculating that agents acted in bad faith. The facts just aren’t there, full stop. That doesn’t make it any less consequential, any less important, but that’s an irresponsible statement.

And, to rub salt in Comey's wide open wounds, Wallace then shared a clip of the president's reaction.

They’ve destroyed the lives of people that were great people, that are still great people. Their lives have been destroyed by scum, okay? By scum.

Here's his question, after the clip.

I’d like your response to that, and I’d like you specifically -- because you said the other day, “Where does former FBI lawyer Lisa Page go to get her reputation back?” where does Carter Page go -- the target of these FISA warrants and surveillance -- where does he go to get his reputation back?

And, the response from Comey.

It’s a great question. Carter Page was treated unfairly, most significantly by his name being made public. He’s a United States citizen, and it never should have been made public, and that’s an outrage. But that statement is just a continuation of the lies about the FBI. The FBI is an honest, apolitical organization. Remember the treason; remember the spying; remember all of us going to jail. That was false information that your viewers and millions of others were given. My own mother-in-law was worried I was going to jail. I kept telling her, “Look, it’s all made up, it’s all made up. Don’t worry about it.” But I couldn’t say that publicly for two years. Well, now I’m saying it on behalf of the FBI. It was all made up, and I hope people will stare at that and learn about what the FBI is like, human and flawed, but deeply committed to trying to do the right thing.

I'm surprised that Comey went to Fox News for this interview - and I have no idea if he got out the message it seemed he wanted to, that the FBI was deserving of people's respect, even if they've been blasted by the president for the past two years and even if they made some pretty bad mistakes on this investigation.

I hope he did, because it might be his last chance to do so, particularly given the statement by US Attorney John Durham, who was handpicked by Trump's AG to investigate the investigation:

I have the utmost respect for the mission of the Office of Inspector General and the comprehensive work that went into the report prepared by Mr. Horowitz and his staff.  However, our investigation is not limited to developing information from within component parts of the Justice Department. Our investigation has included developing information from other persons and entities, both in the U.S. and outside of the U.S.  Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the Inspector General that we do not agree with some of the report’s conclusions as to predication and how the FBI case was opened. 

As Comey himself said, "Sure. I'm responsible for it."

See you around campus.