Sunday School Extra Credit: 12/1/19

Stepping away from impeachment and the 2020 race with this week's Sunday School Extra Credit, and instead I sat in on a conversation between Martha Raddatz and three veterans on ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos who were discussing the Commander-in-Chief and his very active involvement in all things Navy these days.

Raddatz talked with Col. Dave Lapan, US Marine Corps (Ret), who served for 34 years and deployed in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti; Dr. Kyleanne Hunter, US Marine Corps (Ret), a Cobra pilot with multiple deployments in over a decade of service, who has a PhD from the Korbel School; and Cdr. Kirk Lippold, US Navy (Ret.), a 26-year veteran who served on Aegis guided missile cruisers and destroyers, and who was the commanding officer on the USS Cole at the time it was attacked by al Qaeda.

She started by asking the veterans to react to comments made by fired Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, who, in an op ed, said the president's order to restore Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher's rank of the president's order to restore Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher's rank,

"was a shocking and unprecedented intervention in a low-level review. It was also a reminder that the president has very little understanding of what it means to be in the military, to fight ethically, or to be governed by a uniform set of rules and practices." 

Lapan agreed, saying that Trump did "reach down into the chain of command, into the military personnel system in an unprecedented way" and also noted

I think this is the latest example that we've seen from the president that shows he has very little to no understand of the military that he professes to love. 

Lippold, on the other hand, believes Trump did the right thing, noting "you have to look at how the military justice system was performing at that time" and said it was failing, with a prosecutor removed.

The president made it very clear that he was disappointed that the system was not working as it was (supposed to). He wants to back his troops on the ground. This is very disconcerting in many ways to senior officers. 

And, he said, Spencer's comments and how he made them was "wholly inappropriate" and made him seem petty after being fired for cause.

Hunter was troubled that Trump's interventions "send some very concerning messages" after noting that it's important to think about all of this in the context of "the importance of moral in small unit leadership."

And rules of engagement are an incredibly, incredibly important system that is put in place for a reason, And the boots on the ground, the individuals that are making that split (second) decision to take a life or not take a life, to pull a trigger or not pull a trigger, need to know that those rules are there for a reason and that they mean something. 

They discussed a tweet from the president which states "we train our boys to be killing machines, then prosecute them when they kill."  Lippold said it was inappropriate, and to his thinking, it shows the president "is not fully grasping" that they are professionals, with standards and rules that need to be followed.

Hunter was asked to talk about "good order and discipline" and why that's so important.

...in the military, we are expected and we're trained and we are required to do things that often go very counter to human nature. We run towards conflict. We - we lean into it. And that's not something that's easy. It's not in our normal nature to o ti. And so to do it and not devolve into the idea of being a barbarian, that takes a lot of training, but it also requires that there are rules and constraints put in place. 

Lapan shared a story from a time when both he and Raddatz were in Fallujah, and one of our  convoys was caught up in a spot where traffic had been stopped, and an approaching vehicle started going around the ones that were stopped. A Marine shot at the vehicle, in a split-second decision that it was a threat. It turned out not to be the case, but

those are the kind of split-second decisions, life or death and I think that's the key to understanding good order and discipline. We talk about it, but most people don't understand that. 

Raddatz wondered two things - what kind of effect would this whole thing have on our troops on a go-forward basis, and how would they talk to their troops if they were in command today. Here's Lippold:

I would sit there and I would say the president made a decision. It was within his bounds to do so. That is not going to change how we are going to train to do business if we have to go to the tip of the spear and defend this nation. 

If I'm a commander, I am going to still run my unit to that standard, period, because I know that I'm operating under the guidelines and the long view of history is going to support that.  

And here's Hunter, on potential long-term affects.  She mentioned PTSD as something she worries about, and

You know, coming back from war, having made decisions to pull the trigger is hard. You know, it's something that I have worked through. And I think knowing the rules of engagement are meaningful, knowing that we made the best decisions for ourselves and for the people that are to the left and the right of us is something we need to continue to have confidence in and we owe it to those, you know, those young women and men who are over their right now, that they're making the right decisions. 

Raddatz wondered if this divides the force. Lippold said yes, before Raddatz even finished her thought, which was that

we have - we have different opinions right here. I'm thinking in the SEAL community and I'm thinking of the SEALS who - who support Gallagher - who support him and a whole bunch of others who think it's - that should not have happened. 

 Hunter suggested that's one of the "most harmful" long-term effects that you have is

that good order and discipline, rules of engagement, the chain of command both up and down also exists to unify us. And when there's - when the military becomes politicized, nothing good can come of it for the long-term health of the military.

Lippold, who agreed that Trump did the right thing in firing Spencer, seemed to agree.

The military today, I think unfortunately at the senior levels, has become more politicized that it's ever been in our history. And I think at the end of the day, those troops on the ground, those sailors on the ships, want to know that the chain of command has their back.  

The last work goes to Lapan, who painted a somewhat disturbing picture of things, I think.

The divisiveness that we've seen, people taking sides now, more politicization of the military and I'd say it's gone way down at the ranks, it's beyond senior officers when you have, again, troops showing up at events with the president in MAGA hats; (the) Commander in Chief holds events for troops but they're not supposed to be partisan events. And I think the force now wonders and we see divisiveness that's happening because of these things that we've seen the Navy secretary fired over. This president has often talked about how much he admires the military, how much he has done for the military, it's all about the strength of the military. And I'd ask what these pardons have done to further that goal. Rather than making the military stronger, I think he's weakened the military, in these days.

Strength in power, vs strength in morale, in obedience to rules, in respect for the good order and discipline that our military relies on. Think about that.

See you around campus.