Sunday School Extra Credit

Jake Tapper chatted with Adam Schiff, the Democratic chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, on CNN's State of the Union. Schiff, the leader of the impeachment inquiry that initially had us wishing for pizazz, but which this week had some folks riveted by the testimony from the fact witnesses, also checked in with Chuck Todd on MTP.

Schiff agreed with Tapper that EU Ambassador Gordon Sondland's statement that there was a quid pro quo was "the most important moment" of testimony this week. Schiff agree it was, and also mentioned Dr. Fiona Hill's testimony about the 'irregular channel' on Ukraine may have actually been the 'regular' channel. And there was also Sondland's statement that Trump "only cares about the big stuff" - the stuff that's good for Trump, of course.

Tapper wondered if this is it, or if there would be more hearings and more witnesses. Schiff said

We don't foreclose the possibility of more depositions, more hearings. We are in the process of getting more documents all the time. So, that investigative work is going to go on. What we're not prepared to do is wait months and months while the administration plays a game of rope-a-dope in an effort to try to stall... 

And what's more, the evidence is already overwhelming. The remarkable thing about this -- and we have done this with almost -- well, literally no documentary production from the administration -- is, the facts are really not contested. It's really not contested what the president did.

But, Schiff noted,

What is open to question is whether members of Congress are going to do their duty, and whether there will be anyone like Howard Baker, anyone on the Republican side that is willing to put their country, their Constitution above the party, or even the person of this president, because I don't think he really represents at least what the Republican Party used to stand for.

He wouldn't answer Tapper's question on whether Trump should be impeached, saying that he'll wait on a final decision until after he can talk with both his constituents and his colleagues.  However, he said there a "a couple really important things we need to talk about, including whether we think "soliciting foreign interference, conditioning official acts" for political favors is now OK.

Because, if we do, it's basically carte blanche for this president and anyone who comes after him. But are we also prepared to say that Congress will tolerate the complete stonewalling of an impeachment inquiry or our oversight? Because, if we do, it'll mean that the impeachment clause is a complete nullity and, more than that, our oversight ability is really an ability in name only.

Tapper pushed him on his mind not being made up, since he has said things like what they've seen is - quote -- "far more serious than what Nixon did." and asked Schiff to explain how he's still not made up his mind.

Schiff explained that he thinks the evidence "overwhelmingly shows serious misconduct by the president," and he does want to hear from others, the folks back home and in Congress.

But, at the end of the day, this is a decision about whether the founding fathers had in mind this kind of misconduct when they gave Congress this remedy. And I have to think that this is very much central to what they were concerned about. That is, an unethical man or woman takes that office, uses it for their personal political gain, sacrifices the national security to do so. If that wasn't what the founders had in mind, it's hard to imagine what they did.

Tapper asked if "any witnesses testified" that Trump himself linked either a White House meeting or the aid to anything about the investigations - and Schiff said yes.

The president's own chief of staff, the person who meets with the president every day, on live camera admitted exactly that vis-a-vis the most serious, and that is the military aid.

Schiff also said something "every judge tells every jury," about not leaving your common sense at the door. Everyone knows this was about the investigations, he said, or at least the announcement of investigations, even if they were never done.

Tapper turned him back to Mulvaney, noting that the Mulvaney, Pence, Pompeo, Bolton, and even  Giuliani haven't testified,  but "you're not going to go to court to compel them, because you say it's rope-a-dope, it's going to take too much time."  Given all that,

...is that really a principle, the idea that it's just going to take too much time, as opposed to, look, there are three branches of government, here's the legislative branch doing oversight of the executive branch, guess what? The judicial branch gets to weigh in here as well?

Schiff said that they'd love to have these guys testify but "we're not willing to simply allow them to wait us out to stall this proceeding, when the facts are already overwhelming." And he said the investigation will continue, and they'll continue to pursue documents, even after the report is done.

Yes. Oh, yes. The investigation isn't going to end... 

And both the Ukraine part and the obstruction part are clear, and that's a problem.

It means Congress will forever be incapable of doing any oversight. Why should any future president answer a congressional subpoena? The Republicans who take this position today, I guarantee you... will rue the day they did.

Tapper noted that there are folks who are concerned about the timing, about this having an impact on 2020. Schiff said he doesn't "subscribe to those political arguments. I don't think people should be making them, and I don't think people should be thinking of them."

About him potentially being called as a witness, Schiff said that trying to "mollify the president" is not a good enough reason. Tapper tried to suggest he might have info they need, about the whistleblower reaching out, for example, and wondered if Schiff would refuse to testify if asked. 

I don't want to comment on it, except to say that, if they go down this road, it shows a fundamental lack of seriousness, a willingness to try to turn this into a circus, like the president would like. And I hope they don't go there.

Tapper asked about moving forward, "even if it costs you support, Democratic support in the House of Representatives? Ultimately, you could lose the House? Even if it means it actually makes President Trump stronger?"

In response, Schiff reiterated how he got to where he is now, what got him from being opposed to going down the impeachment road to thinking it was necessary, is

..the fact that, the day after Bob Mueller testified about Donald Trump's invitation to the Russians to intervene, his willingness to make use of it in his campaign, the lies that he told about it, and the obstruction of justice in terms of the investigation into it, the day after that, Jake, Donald Trump was back on the phone asking yet another foreign leader, Zelensky, for yet more foreign help in another election.

Tapper's response?

And, once again, it sounds like you're ready to impeach President Trump. But I know you're going to talk to your constituents first.

 I'll leave it there.

See you around campus.